The church is in such a mess because not enough people realize that God and Guns go together like... like... like something! You know, God helps them that helps themselves, right? :)
Something for you to think about as well. Why did Jesus tell His disciples to buy swords and then rebuke Peter for using one immediately afterward? Doesn't that seem inconsistent not to mention Matthew 5 or Romans 12? Well Scripture gives us the answer in the very next verse:
For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors.' For what is written about me has its fulfillment." (Luk 22:37)
It certainly seems that the swords were necessary to fulfill Scripture, not as a license to arm ourselves in the future for self-defense.
Is there something unbiblical about self protection against evil people who have guns etc?
It seems you might have a Biblical conviction on non-resistance to evil aggressors. If that is your faith, don't go against it for whatever is not of faith is sin. Another believer has a faith that says having a gun is okay. Can you accept him without trying to quarrel?
Seems to me the gun issue goes under the Romans 14,15 text.
Is there something unbiblical about self protection against evil people who have guns etc?
Yes.
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.(Romans 12:21)
Shooting someone else because you are in fear of loss of life or property definitely qualfies as overcoming evil with evil.
Seems to me the gun issue goes under the Romans 14,15 text.
Does Romans 14,15 apply when something is directly contradicting a commandment? Your comments on issues in the church would seem to indicate that it does not.
This isn't a weaker brother issue, it is an issue clearly addressed in Scripture in Matthew 5 and Romans 12. You may disagree with my interpretation of the relevant passages in Romans 12 and Matthew 5 but that doesn't mean that they fall into the category of eating or festivals. You can't equate the two. Let the one who sees killing another as OK be fully convinced in his own mind?
The cavalier attitude among Christians towards using violence in the name of the state or in "self-defense" is every bit as harmful to the witness of the church, actually more so, than paid ministers or non-participatory meetings.
Maybe you could share with me scriptural examples where to defend your self and if necessary to kill your attacker is evil? Didn't Abraham go out against the kings that abducted Lot and Melkizedeck said God had blessed Abrahams efforts? One of many examples.
I think thou shalt not defend your self is equally weak with scripture as thou shalt not drink wine or eat meat used in devil worship or work on a Saturday. But I accept these saints without quarreling with them to try to cure them to my perspective. There is room for dispute while maintaining unity to build up the household of faith.
"See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone."
Self defense is not repayment. If you do not defend yourself and get killed you can no longer "seek to do good..." Making self defense evil makes no sense in the context of this instruction. You are welcome to make the stretch for your faith.
One of many examples? All would be found in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant. The last time I check, we are under a New Covenant. Christ NEVER calls or permits His followers to engage in violence.
I am not saying that those who think it is perfectly OK for a Christian to kill someone else are not my brothers and nothing I have written would imply that. I am saying that the notion of our "right" to self-defense is based on American culture and not in Scripture. There is nothing in the New Testament to support the idea of killing another person to defend yourself or your stuff.
The idea that there is minimal Scriptural support for non-resistance is ridiculous. Setting aside all of the events from the arrest of Jesus when He rebuked Peter for using the sword to defend Christ to Jesus refusing to defend Himself in front of Pilate and meekly being led like a lamb to the slaughter at the cross, there is ample Scriptural support for the idea that Christians are to seek peace, to not retaliate, to not resist evil, to live peaceably with all people. Here are some of the strongest Scriptures, in context, to support a non-resistant position
“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Matthew 5:9 ESV)
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:38-48 ESV)
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.(Romans 12:14-21 ESV)
You can read those and come away with a neutral position on shooting someone in "self-defense"? You can equate those powerful Scriptural teachings to eating meat sacrificed to idols? If that is the case then nothing in Scripture is binding on us unless we decide it is.
Where is your security? In your right to self-defense or the sovereign God? If you trust God and His providence, I am certain He will preserve and protect you just as long as He decrees and when He calls you home is His decision. You know that whole to die is gain and to live is Christ thing?
I would encourage you to ponder what Christ said in Matthew 10:28:
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."(Matthew 10:28 ESV)
If you are born-again believer in Christ, what do you have to fear from the evildoer? That they might take your stuff or kill you? Place your faith in the promises of Christ, not in your "right" to self-defense.
10 comments:
Because that statement is what a lot of them preach from the pulpit.
It is a mess. Sad.
The church is in such a mess because not enough people realize that God and Guns go together like... like... like something! You know, God helps them that helps themselves, right? :)
Hey John
Something for you to think about as well. Why did Jesus tell His disciples to buy swords and then rebuke Peter for using one immediately afterward? Doesn't that seem inconsistent not to mention Matthew 5 or Romans 12? Well Scripture gives us the answer in the very next verse:
For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors.' For what is written about me has its fulfillment."
(Luk 22:37)
It certainly seems that the swords were necessary to fulfill Scripture, not as a license to arm ourselves in the future for self-defense.
Arthur,
I dislike people being walking billboards for any reason.
Your illustration? Extremely repugnant!
I guess I do not see what the problem is with the t-shirt? Don't see how this related to the church? At church, all I hear from the pulpit is Christ.
Is there something unbiblical about self protection against evil people who have guns etc?
It seems you might have a Biblical conviction on non-resistance to evil aggressors. If that is your faith, don't go against it for whatever is not of faith is sin. Another believer has a faith that says having a gun is okay. Can you accept him without trying to quarrel?
Seems to me the gun issue goes under the Romans 14,15 text.
Tim
Is there something unbiblical about self protection against evil people who have guns etc?
Yes.
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.(Romans 12:21)
Shooting someone else because you are in fear of loss of life or property definitely qualfies as overcoming evil with evil.
Seems to me the gun issue goes under the Romans 14,15 text.
Does Romans 14,15 apply when something is directly contradicting a commandment? Your comments on issues in the church would seem to indicate that it does not.
This isn't a weaker brother issue, it is an issue clearly addressed in Scripture in Matthew 5 and Romans 12. You may disagree with my interpretation of the relevant passages in Romans 12 and Matthew 5 but that doesn't mean that they fall into the category of eating or festivals. You can't equate the two. Let the one who sees killing another as OK be fully convinced in his own mind?
The cavalier attitude among Christians towards using violence in the name of the state or in "self-defense" is every bit as harmful to the witness of the church, actually more so, than paid ministers or non-participatory meetings.
Maybe you could share with me scriptural examples where to defend your self and if necessary to kill your attacker is evil? Didn't Abraham go out against the kings that abducted Lot and Melkizedeck said God had blessed Abrahams efforts? One of many examples.
I think thou shalt not defend your self is equally weak with scripture as thou shalt not drink wine or eat meat used in devil worship or work on a Saturday. But I accept these saints without quarreling with them to try to cure them to my perspective. There is room for dispute while maintaining unity to build up the household of faith.
"See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone."
Self defense is not repayment. If you do not defend yourself and get killed you can no longer "seek to do good..." Making self defense evil makes no sense in the context of this instruction. You are welcome to make the stretch for your faith.
Tim
One of many examples? All would be found in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant. The last time I check, we are under a New Covenant. Christ NEVER calls or permits His followers to engage in violence.
I am not saying that those who think it is perfectly OK for a Christian to kill someone else are not my brothers and nothing I have written would imply that. I am saying that the notion of our "right" to self-defense is based on American culture and not in Scripture. There is nothing in the New Testament to support the idea of killing another person to defend yourself or your stuff.
The idea that there is minimal Scriptural support for non-resistance is ridiculous. Setting aside all of the events from the arrest of Jesus when He rebuked Peter for using the sword to defend Christ to Jesus refusing to defend Himself in front of Pilate and meekly being led like a lamb to the slaughter at the cross, there is ample Scriptural support for the idea that Christians are to seek peace, to not retaliate, to not resist evil, to live peaceably with all people. Here are some of the strongest Scriptures, in context, to support a non-resistant position
“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Matthew 5:9 ESV)
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:38-48 ESV)
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.(Romans 12:14-21 ESV)
You can read those and come away with a neutral position on shooting someone in "self-defense"? You can equate those powerful Scriptural teachings to eating meat sacrificed to idols? If that is the case then nothing in Scripture is binding on us unless we decide it is.
*continued*
*continued*
Where is your security? In your right to self-defense or the sovereign God? If you trust God and His providence, I am certain He will preserve and protect you just as long as He decrees and when He calls you home is His decision. You know that whole to die is gain and to live is Christ thing?
I would encourage you to ponder what Christ said in Matthew 10:28:
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."(Matthew 10:28 ESV)
If you are born-again believer in Christ, what do you have to fear from the evildoer? That they might take your stuff or kill you? Place your faith in the promises of Christ, not in your "right" to self-defense.
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