So I am in a fun “discussion” with a couple of fellows in the comment thread on one of Frank Turk’s posts on Facebook. The post was actually originally a very funny reference to R. Scott Clark’s series on “churchless evangelicals” from December (I posted a series of responses to Dr. Clark’s misapplication here) but in the comments on Facebook one guy made the assertion: “outside the visible church there is no ordinary possibility of salvation”.
Needless to say I cried foul at that.
On the day of Pentecost we see thousands of people saved from preaching in the streets. They were apparently saved apart from a local, visible church. Was their salvation contingent upon “joining” a local church? What about the thief on the cross? What about the Ethiopian eunuch? In fact, do we see anyone anywhere in the Scriptures saved in conjunction with a local, visible church?
Predictably we have seen “Anabaptist” thrown out like a dart as if they were wrong about everything and Luther/Calvin were right about every issue. I informed that gentleman that I also listen to the White Horse Inn so I am familiar with the use of “Anabaptist” as a pejorative.
What I don’t get is the blanket assumption that if you question the institutional church or suggest an overemphasis on the visible, organized expression of the church, people assume you don’t “care” about the church. If you reject the traditional, Roman Catholic based view of the local church that doesn’t make you a “lone wolf” Christian. I would say just the opposite, that many people who raise these questions care enough about the church that Christ died to redeem that they take the time to see what His Word says about that church instead of relying on confessions that were written 1600 years after Pentecost as their authority.
10 comments:
There are two churches.
The visable one in the pews, and the one that Christ knows (the redeemed).
I would say that both groups are in every church.
Arthur --
Doesn' the Bible state the "we" are the church - that is the body of Christ? I guess I am confused. Since when does the bible preach that "church" = denomination, buidling, etc.
We are the body of Christ -- Jesus died and shed His blood to redeem His bride.Why do some complicate the matter?
I pray daily for unity in the body of Christ - but it saddens my heart to see so much division.
God bless,
gloria
I think its safe to assume that intention non-participation with a visible church falls outside Scripture boundaries (thus, when I met a Christian who refuses to associate with a local body I seriously question whether that individual is even a believer--whether that local body be a "denominational" church entity or a house-assembly).
I would also agree that there is no salvation outside the Church--but certainly not the "visible" Church.
The Catholics made the mistake of equating the Kingdom of God with the Church. It sounds like that commenter has done the same.
Is that a direct quote from the Facebook discussion? Is it possible that by "ordinary," he meant it this way? ;)
So I'll tell you why that dude's comment creeps me out so much: because if you replace "the visible church" with "Jesus," it's completely true.
We should never substitute a human institution for our Redeemer King. Sadly, many people fail to even realize they're doing that very thing.
Josh, I think you hit the right note there. There is no precedent for a Christian who doesn't gather with other Christians, but on the other hand there are many who see a particular expression of the local church as the only valid form. The commentor in question is reflecting the same view that Dr. Clark espouses that links membership in the visible with salvation, a clearly unbiblical notion. The two are not even remotely equivalent. Being in the “visible” church means nothing to your salvation, being in the “invisible” church means everything.
Travis, that is a cut and paste quote from the discussion and I found it as creepy as you do!
Gloria,
Amen to that sister!
Why is it okay for there to be an underground church in communist China but not in the good ol' US of A?
With respect to Pentecost, weren't the thousands who were saved converted by the external means of grace, e.g., the preaching of the Gospel by Peter? So they were "in the church" as well.
Bobby,
Sure, proclaiming the Gospel is the means God uses to disseminate the Good News of Jesus Christ that works in tandem with the changed heart in regeneration to bring someone to faith. I have no issue with that because the Bible is clear through command and example that preaching is the means by which God brings people into the church. My point is that there was no visible church organization in the way that the WCF is speaking of, with a dual-church model of the invisible and visible church. People in the New Testament didn’t come to church to hear the Gospel preached, the church went out to the people and those who believed became part of the church. People not only can be saved outside of the auspices of the “visible church”, they most often were saved without the assistance or approval of a church organization.
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