Wednesday, August 03, 2011

We have no right to sit in judgment of God

I haven't blogged about Reformed theology in a long time. I kind of beat it to death. That doesn't mean I don't pay attention to stuff. I was checking out the blog from Peter Kirk, a Brit that wrote an interesting guest post for Alan Knox. He linked on his blog to a different post by Roger Olson wherein Roger seems ambivalent about whether universalism is really a heresy or at least if it is a heresy, it is kind of a mild one (i.e. that every single person is saved, in direct contrast to some of the most explicit Biblical langauage on a topic on can find on any topic) but Roger is sure that Calvinism is a heresy, at least if one actually believes it. Here is part of what he wrote...

Someone once asked me whether I would still worship God if somehow I became convinced the Calvinist view of God is correct. I had to say no. Sheer power is not worthy of worship. Only power controlled by love is worthy of worship.
Well, that sounds dandy. No Scripture to back it up mind you, but lovely to our ears. What about sheer power coupled with love? What Olson is promoting is "love" that is divorced from power. God is either impotent to save whosoever He wishes or doesn't care enough to do so for fear of being labelled "unfair" or worse being referred to as "monstrous" by one of His creatures. That is so grotesquely inaccurate a portrayal of Calvinism that it hardly deserves notice.

Peter wrote a response, in a head scratchingly titled post: Better a universalist than a Calvinist
Indeed. Universalism born from optimistic hope may be unrealistic but it is not a serious heresy. Believing in a God who condemns most people to everlasting torment without offering to them the grace they would need to be saved is a serious heresy because it turns the God of love into a monster. Like Olson, I could never worship a God like that.
So universalism which directly contradicts the overall teaching of the Bible and the explicit teaching of Christ, a heresy that has been universally condemned by the church for 2000 years, is preferable to Calvinism, which has been held by Christians in some form for centuries and which has ample Biblical support? Which is more "monstrous", that God elected a certain people out of the mass of humanity lost in sin to effectually save and passed over the rest? Or that He really, really wants to save everyone but leaves the eternal fate of billions of people in the hands of sinful humans, knowing full well that billions of people will live and die and never hear the Gospel and be lost all in the name of "free will" and fairness? How is that just?

Both Peter and Roger make the same categorical error. We don't worship God because we find Him acceptable to our sensibilities. Our worship of God is a result of who He is, based on His acceptance of us in His Son, not on His acceptability to our sinful and limited notions of fairness. That any human, and especially a born again Christian, would stand in front of God and dictate the terms of our worship to Him makes me shudder.

Did God sit on the shore of the Red Sea hoping His people would decide to flee Egypt and that the Pharaoh wouldn't pursue them?

Did God sit around hoping Saul would have a change of heart and stop persecuting Christians?

I am not going to spend a lot more time extolling Calvinism. I think there are more important things to worry about and I am uninterested in convincing people of it. I do however question those who both misrepresent Calvinism and make it an issue of heresy, thus painting people like me and millions of other brothers and sisters in Christ as heretics.

11 comments:

James said...

Dont you actually have to be a Calvinist to be a heretic here? At least according to the accusations being levied?

-signed,

not a calvinist...

Aussie John said...

Arthur,

I noticed same, and had same reaction as yourself.

A faulty view of God will always result in faulty theology.

Arthur Sido said...

Aussie John

Well said.

Arthur Sido said...

James

Um, ok?

Peter Kirk said...

Arthur, thank you for the link, and for the interesting discussion of what I wrote.

I am glad that you agree that a teaching is a heresy if it is "in direct contrast to some of the most explicit Biblical langauage on a topic on can find on any topic". For it is on exactly that basis that I reject as heresy the teaching that God doesn't want some people to be saved but instead predestines them to eternal torment. That appears to conflict with John 3:16, and the contrast with 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 is surely in "the most explicit Biblical langauage on a topic on can find on any topic".

Yes, this is a bit of a caricature of Calvinism. I know of formulations of Calvinism which allow that God wants everyone to be saved and predestines people to what he knows they freely choose. But I have also heard of formulations of Calvinism in terms which do portray God as a monster. It is these which I reject.

As for universalism, I know that there are many warnings of hell in the Bible, but that does not imply that anyone rejects those warnings and actually goes there. Compare Jonah 3:4, a warning and prophecy which was not fulfilled because everyone repented. I don't see much "explicit Biblical langauage" that any humans actually go to hell. But there is Revelation 20:15, and I think on that basis we must accept that some people are condemned. So I am not actually a universalist.

Then concerning sitting in judgment on God: If God is, in my opinion, a monster but has given me free will, I can exercise that free will to reject him and not worship him. If he hasn't given me free will, then presumably he has predestined me not to worship him and to be condemned for it. The language of rights is irrelevant here, in a hypothetical world where power is everything.

Arthur Sido said...

Peter

So your position is that God warns of hell and yet no one actually goes? Kind of an empty threat like a mom counting to three at a disobedient child and then not doing anything when they get to three? You reference Rev 20 but not Matthew 25? The language of judgment is powerful and unequivocal in Scripture. You admit as much but waffle on the issue of universalism as heresy. Either all people are saved or some are not. There is no middle ground. If universalism doesn’t rise to the level of heresy, frankly nothing does.

The notion that John 3:16 is somehow a trump card that defeats Calvinism and promotes universalism is silly. Jesus says not two verses later that those who don’t believe are condemned already and clearly many people do not believe. Likewise the passages you reference in 1 Timothy. Does “all people” mean every single person without exception or does “all people” mean both Jew and Gentile? Or does God really, really want to save everyone but can’t? Is His sovereignty trumped by the might of human free will? You know, the free will of people with stony hearts that are spiritually dead in their trespasses and sin who of their own volition suddenly come to life? Then there is the 2 Peter 3:9 passage (emphasis added)…

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Who is the “you” Peter is referencing? Peter doesn’t leave us in the dark. He is quite explicit about his audience when we see who he addresses the letter to:

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. (2 Peter 1:1-2)

Who is he addressing? Those who have obtained a faith equal to that of Peter. Doesn’t sound like he is talking about unbelievers here. This is the problem with dueling verses. I can throw out the Calvinist verses (and there are many more of them) but the question is, what is the overall story of redemption? Is it of Jesus dying on a cross and hoping some people will choose Him? Or is it of God electing and redeeming a people out of the lost mass of humanity? The latter is Scripturally supportable, the former is not.

The big difference here is that while I see Arminianism/Semi-Pelagianism as an error, I don't call it heresy and by implication I am not calling those who have a faulty view of soteriology “heretics”. I can accept them, and by implication you, as brothers in Christ in spite of this error. You seem unwilling to do the same. If one holds to a heretical teaching, that person cannot be a brother in Christ and needs to be treated as an unbeliever. While I find your position deeply erroneous and misguided, that doesn’t mean I would not welcome you as a brother. It is tragic that the reverse apparently is not true.

Peter Kirk said...

No, Arthur. You completely misunderstand me.

First, the position "that God warns of hell and yet no one actually goes" is not mine, but that of the universalists who I am calling heretics but not serious ones. Don't forget this.

Second, the position is not at all that the threat of hell is an empty one. It is very real, like the threat in Jonah 3:4. But if everyone repents it is not put into reality. Your mom counting to three example is not an empty threat if the child actually does what it is told before she gets to three.

Yes, I could have mentioned Matthew 25. Thank you for the reminder. These are reasons why I am not a universalist.

I never said or even suggested or hinted that John 3:16 teaches universalism. In 1 Timothy 2:4 "all people" is pantas anthropous, "all human beings", not "representatives of all people groups". As for 2 Peter 3:9, are you suggesting that some of Peter's audience of believers have not repented and are in danger of perishing? I trust you are not going to play the "empty threat" card on that one.

God's sovereignty is not "trumped" but shown in all its glory in that he chooses to give people free will, knowing that many will reject him.

Yes, I agree that duelling with verses is not the best way to discuss this matter. But it was you who referred to "some of the most explicit Biblical langauage on a topic on can find on any topic", implying that you are looking at specific passages rather than at the whole sweep of Scripture.

Then I strongly object to your use of the term "Arminianism/Semi-Pelagianism". Classical Arminianism is not at all semi-Pelagianism. This is simply a gratuitous libel against Arminians, trying to discredit them by pinning on them the name of what is generally recognised as a heresy. It is not adequate to get out of this by saying it is not a heresy, just an error. That's a bit like saying someone is another Osama Bin Laden, but they are not a terrorist, just a murderer.

However, you misconstrue me in your final sentence by assuming that I understand "heresy" in the same way as you. I am prepared to accept both Calvinists and universalists as my brothers and sisters in Christ, despite their errors. I don't want to burn heretics. But I do want to bring them back from the errors of their ways.

Arthur Sido said...

Help me out here Peter

In one sentence you say..

It is not adequate to get out of this by saying it is not a heresy, just an error. That's a bit like saying someone is another Osama Bin Laden, but they are not a terrorist, just a murderer.

but then you say...

I am prepared to accept both Calvinists and universalists as my brothers and sisters in Christ, despite their errors. I don't want to burn heretics. But I do want to bring them back from the errors of their ways.

Which is it? When I say you are in error I am splitting hairs but when you say I am in error it is for the most pure of motives? Come on.

I am further confused by your grades of heresy. Universalism is a heresy but not a serious one? Sort of heresy light? Take a stand, it either is a heresy or it is not.

This is even more inexplicable...

God's sovereignty is not "trumped" but shown in all its glory in that he chooses to give people free will, knowing that many will reject him.

God shows His soveriegnity by ultimately leaving the salvation of human beings to their own "free will" decisions? Again, the free will exercised by sinners who are dead in their tresspasses and sins? All men reject God in their natural state (Eph 2:1-3) until God calls them (John 6:44), a calling based on His sovereign election before the foundations of the earth (Eph 1:3-6). The theme of God electing, predestinating, calling and regenerating a particular people runs throughout Scripture, from God choosing Israel under the Old Covenant (Deu 7:6-8) to God electing individual sinners to redeem and passing over others. The Calvinist position is not predicated on a couple of proof texts but rather on the grand story of God's redeeming purpose through His Son that takes into account the explicit teaching of the text.

I am eternally grateful that God did not leave the "decision" for my salvation to me or you but rather than he elected and called us to Himself.

Peter Kirk said...

Arthur, in case I wasn't 100% clear in my own post, I agree with Olson when he writes "universalism is heresy. It is unbiblical and illogical. However, that does not mean a person who holds it is not a Christian. ... I think universalism is a minor heresy SO LONG AS it does not interfere with evangelism."

God shows His soveriegnity by ultimately leaving the salvation of human beings to their own "free will" decisions?

Precisely. Or if you don't think this is something you can call "sovereignty", let's drop that unbiblical word (well, NIV uses it, but only of human rulers) and stick with the biblical "love". If your God has such "sovereignty", why does he let people sin, why does he allow evil in the world, and most seriously of all, why, if his love means anything, does he condemn most people to everlasting torment? As I said before, if this is the sovereignty of God, then no thanks!

Arthur Sido said...

Peter

You are making the error of looking at God's love outside of any other characteristic. God is love but God is also holy and just. He is the same God who destroyed the world through flood, destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their sin, killed the first born of the Egyptians and then destroyed Pharaohs pursuing army, the same God who allowed His covenant people to be conquered and enslaved.

God's inherent holiness and justice has not changed because God is unchangeable. When you look at humanity as the Bible portrays it, one thing is clear: we all deserve justice and wrath. In spite of that God showed His love by sending His Son, not to ignore sin but to bear the penalty of the sins of His people. The nature of God is far more complex than just a Hallmark card notion of love.

Aminianism or whatever you want to call it still depends on a couple of prooftexts plucked out of context coupled with a man-centered narrative. It still cannot account for the fact that the same Gospel message preached to a group of people will see some dead sinners respond and others who do not which leaves us with the unspoken assumption that I "chose" God of my own free will because of some inherent goodness in me that others don't possess. The Calvinist sees salvation as completely a work of God, something done entirely for us not in cooperation with us.

I would caution you to be very careful about making bold statements that reject God if He doesn't conform to your notion of fairness. The last thing any of us should desire from God is fairness because what is "fair" is that we all end up in hell.

James said...

Yup. Still not a Calvinist.