An aide to Senator Sam Brownback sent an email with the following statement with has led to a bunch of backpedaling and apologies:
Among the statements: "Theologically, the only thing Christianity and the LDS church has in common is the name of Jesus Christ, and the LDS Jesus is not the same Jesus of the Christian faith" and "The LDS church has never been accepted by the Christian Council of Churches."
So what is egregiously wrong about that statement?
Well, nothing. Nothing except that it is the truth, minus any political spin. In fact most early mormon leaders would probably agree with such a statement, from a different angle. But of course this has led to hand-wringing, sad statements rueing the "bigotry" of telling the truth about mormons, etc. Of course the real problem is that for a Republican candidate, the fact is that mormons are about as sure a thing as there is in the electorate and you don't want to offend a huge block of in-the-bag voters. Even if those votes come at the expense of truth...
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UPDATE:
Senator Brownback phones Mitt Romney to apologize. I wonder if he took the time to ask him what his church teaches about Christ? Again, being a mormon probably shouldn't be a campaign issue, but what the staffer asked is a perfectly legitimate point, the Jesus of mormonism is NOT the Christ of the Bible.
12 comments:
Wow. I really thought that Christian orthodoxy had other commonalities with Mormonism than just the name of Jesus Christ. All this time, I thought that non-Mormon Christians believed in the Bible, the teachings of Paul, the Creation, the Fall, the atonement of Jesus Christ, His second coming, baptism, Adam and Eve, that Jesus established a Church with 12 apostles, that He lived a sinless life, was crucified, buried and rose from the dead and that salvation is in His name. It's too bad that apparently only Mormons believe those things. I could have sworn that I've come across many of those things as I've listened to "Through the Bible with J. Vernon McGee" but I guess he was a Mormon?
Alma, You know as well as I do, The LDS do not believe exactly as Christians do. We both say we believe in Jesus Christ for example. Yet it is misleading and dectiful for the LDS to allow people to think we believe in the same Jesus.
Behind your jesus, we find that he was a mere man who made it to godhood, we find he is the brother of lucifer, and we know lucifer was a created being, this means your jesus was created.
So I have said before and will say again, I believe many, not all, but many LDS are willfully deciving people, simply because they only tell part of the story. Either be upfront in what you believe or be seen as a deciver in my book. Rick b
Interesting. Can I assume that you didn’t read my profile? After five years as a mormon and having been through the Washington, D.C. temple, and having studied mormon doctrine in depth (not just the sanitized version we get out of Salt Lake these days) since God saved me out of mormonism, I recognize that using the same words does not equate to meaning the same thing.
I think you may have missed a few points of difference along the way. For example, the nature of God and the nature of Jesus Christ. The difference between believing in the Bible as the inerrant Word of God and believing in the Bible only as far as it is translated correctly. Believing that the atonement of Christ was sufficient for salvation and that our works are but filthy rags in His sight versus a works based faith where salvation is dependent on our works in this life. The nature of the Church.
What I don’t get is why mormons, after years and years of distancing themselves from “apostate” Christianity, are trying so hard to gloss over the differences.
Interesting stuff...
I am going to assume that Alma is merely doing a drive-by comment, making a completely unsustainable argument, declaring victory and going on his way.
I may be forced to chase him down on his own blog...
Nice try at obfuscation, Art. You claimed that Senator Brownback's aid was absolutely correct in claiming that the only theological concept shared between Mormons and orthodox Christians is the name of Jesus Christ. I replied by noting several other commonalities such as (among others) the belief that Jesus was crucified for our sins and rose again on the third day. I didn't miss the fact that there are other differences "along the way" but that wasn't the point of your claim supporting Nemecek's statement was it?
Rickb replied somewhat dimly that he knows that I know that "LDS do not believe exactly as Christians do. (!)
I did read your profile; but the fact that you once were Mormon doesn't have any bearing on my response to your claim. You asserted something that is clearly false and the fact that Mormons do have substantial differences with other Christians is beside the point.
I'm moderately amused when Christians bring up the fact that Mormons believe the Bible as far as it's translated correctly. It's amusing because I have yet to meet a Protestant or a Catholic who claims he would accept a passage that he knew was translated incorrectly. Would you? It's also amusing because I find orthodox Christians appealing to the original languages far more often than do Mormons. That in itself demonstrates that they question the validity of some translations--making them just as observant (if not more so) as are the LDS of the 9th Article of Faith.
Alma said under his reply to me (Rick B) I did read your profile; but the fact that you once were Mormon doesn't have any bearing on my response to your claim.
Alma, You must be confusing me with someone else, I was never a Mormon and I never said I was. Then you said You asserted something that is clearly false and the fact that Mormons do have substantial differences with other Christians is beside the point.
Why are the differencs besides the point? They are such huge differences they will come down to your eterinty in heaven or hell, You are deciving People by allowing them to believe something you really do not believe, and it is deception by saying you believe in Jesus, when your jesus is not the same Jesus as I believe. Remember Gal 1:8-9 Paul said you will end up in hell for having a different gospel and jesus. Rick b
Rick,
Alma was replying to me, not you about being a former mormon...
Arthur, I thought he was, but His reply about your profile was under my name when he was replying to me, so it was a bit confusing. Rick b
That is my fault, I replied back to him before I published your comment, and it was messed up timing wise.
Alma, I am working on a response to you but my sermon tomorrow is taking precedent right now.
Alma, study church history... especially around the Nicene Creed with the Arian Heresy... What you are doing is unsurprisingly similar... Study the great church father Athanasius and you will see that the Arians employ the same tactic that you and Mormonism uses... In the English language words are alot more blurred in meaning than they are in the language of say Latin... It was similar in the Greek... Similar words varied slightly...
All that said for context, when you say that you believe in the teachings of Paul, like justification by faith or by grace alone it means something totally different than when a Christian says justification, salvation, Jesus Christ, etc.
Your arguments are ridiculous... if you really wanted to get anywhere in an argument you will have to define your terms in a more concrete way... But this would unblur the terms and show how Mormonism is really a cult that was created because Joseph Smith thought the Christians were not having as great a social effect as they should... Which ultimately is a definition of a cult...
Alma,
Thanks for coming back, I figured posting on your page would get your attention.
It is interesting that you chose obfuscation to describe my post. The issue at hand, what the aide to Senator Brownback was bringing up, is that the only thing that mormons and Christians share is the use of the name “Jesus”. What sets Christianity apart from mormonism is not terminology but theology. Again, the crux of the issue starts with who Christ is, and who He is not. Mormonism traditionally has taught that Christ and God the Father are distinct beings, and are also created beings, meaning they are by definition subordinate to any number of other gods. The Bible teaches and Christians believe that Christ and the Father are one in the Godhead, eternally existent as God along with the Holy Spirit in one Trinity. Those two definitions of God are mutually exclusive. Jesus Christ cannot be simultaneously eternal, uncreated, the Alpha and the Omega, the very Creator and at the same time be a created being. God cannot be a unique being, without peer and yet at the same time part of a multiplicity of gods.
Regarding the appeal to the original languages that you find so amusing: I fail to see why that is a negative in your eyes. Perhaps because the mormon church has a woeful lack of both members and scholars who are trained in the languages. Granted, you did have a prophet who was adept at translating a language that didn’t exist, mistranslating Egyptian into a text that forms the basis of much of your doctrine and generally proving himself to be a conman. Christians can turn to and appeal to because we have thousands of scholars who are versed in the original langauges. What mormons do is put their faith in one English translation and allow the “prophet” to provide the interpretation for them.
Inerrancy is indeed based on the original autographs, not on a particular translation. That is why there is such a focus on the original languages. If there is a question about the accuracy of a translation, we go back to the originals to see what they say. The questions you raise “It's amusing because I have yet to meet a Protestant or a Catholic who claims he would accept a passage that he knew was translated incorrectly. Would you?” is a red herring because Bible believing Christians believe that a sovereign God is more than capable of preserving His Word throughout the ages. It hardly seems reasonable that a God who is capable of creating the entire world and universe ex nihilo is yet foiled by devious ministers and academics who retranslated the Bible to suit themselves. In fact, Joseph Smith, acclaimed as far too ignorant to have drawn up the BoM whole cloth, saw fit to begin “retranslating” the Bible from English to suit his own warped theology. One would have to assume that had he lived longer, he would have amended the entire Bible to suit himself, which is precisely what the average mormon seems to think has happened to the Bible in Christian churches.
I am glad you come by to dialogue and I hope you continue to do so. I doubt you are much influenced by the arguments I am putting forth, although I pray that you are, but many quite a few others do at least read these posts.
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